Preamble

[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.]

Oral Answers to Questions — NATIONAL WAR EFFORT

Evacuee Hostels, Perthshire (Staffing)

Mr. Snadden: asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware of the serious difficulties under which evacuee hostels are being carried on in the county of Perth owing to the lack of adequate staffing; and will he direct women to work of this kind?

The Minister of Labour (Mr. Ernest Bevin): I am making inquiries about the position in the county of Perth and will write to my hon. Friend in due course.

Women War Workers

Mr. Lipson: asked the Minister of Labour whether he has considered the copies, which have been sent to him by the hon. Member for Cheltenham, of letters stating that women war workers in factories are not fully employed; and whether he will hold an inquiry into these allegations and take appropriate action?

Mr. Bevin: My hon. Friend has sent me two letters, one of which was anonymous and made statements in general terms which could not be tested; in the other case inquiry showed that there was no foundation for the complaint. I am writing to my hon. Friend to explain the circumstances more fully.

Mr. Lipson: Is my right hon. Friend aware that one reason I asked this Question was that these letters were published in the Press at the time of the campaign to encourage women to do part-time work? It was having a most serious effect on the campaign and I desired that publicity should be given to my right hon. Friend's reply.

Mr. Bevin: Certainly.

Milk Pasteurisation (Skilled Workers)

Mr. Arthur Hollins: asked the Minister of Labour whether his attention has been called to the Report of the Committee on Tuberculosis in war-time, in which attention is called to the serious depletion of skilled workers in the pasteurisation processing depots; and whether he is prepared to implement the proposals that specially skilled workers in these depots should be placed on the list of reserved occupations and that workers in this category who have already been called up should be returned to their posts?

Mr. Bevin: My attention has been called to this Report, but I am not aware of any excessive depletion in the numbers of skilled workers engaged in milk pasteurisation. I consult my right hon. Friend the Minister of Food before calling up workers from this industry. As regards release from the Forces, it would only be in cases of clearly proved necessity that I should feel able to recommend such action to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War, in view of the requirements of man-power for the Forces.

Dr. Russell Thomas: Does the Minister not think the time has arrived to consult the Minister of Agriculture and the Minister of Food in order to secure the production of clean fresh milk instead of constantly subjecting milk to these artificial processes?

Bacteriologist, Hanley

Mr. A. Hollins: asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that a dairy company operating in Hanley responsible for the distribution of 70,000 gallons of milk per week has only one qualified bacteriologist responsible for the chemical control of all that milk and who has already passed his Army medical examination; and, as the laboratory will have to be closed down on this man being called up, with serious consequences to the industry and the consumers, will he take steps to see that his services should be retained by the company?

Mr. Bevin: I am having inquiries made into this case and will communicate the result to my hon. Friend.

Transferred Workers (Hostels and Clubs)

Sir Patrick Hannon: asked the Minister of Labour the policy of His Majesty's


Government on the extended organisation of hostels and working girls' clubs for munition workers in industrial centres; and whether he is satisfied with the activities of the hostels and clubs already in operation?

Mr. Bevin: With my colleagues who are responsible for the Supply Departments, I have the needs of transferred workers in these respects constantly under review, and where further provision is found to be necessary active steps are taken to see that it is forthcoming so far as is reasonably possible in view of the competing demands for building labour and material for other urgent national purposes. I am satisfied that the hostels and clubs which have already been established on a substantial scale in accordance with this policy are rendering very valuable service.

Sir P. Hannon: Is it the policy of the Minister of Labour to assist in the promotion of these institutions as far as he possibly can?

Mr. Bevin: Yes, I am having a further survey made at the present moment to try and increase their numbers rapidly.

Mr. Kenneth Lindsay: And to assist them financially?

Sir Richard Acland: Should individual cases where it is alleged that food in these hostels is not adequate be addressed to the right hon. Gentleman's Department?

Shipyard Workers, Tees-side (Wages)

Miss Ward: asked the Minister of Labour whether, in view of the recent strike of rivet heaters and catchers at Furness shipyard, Tees-side, during which they earned more remunerative wages by picking up potatoes, he will take steps to see that wages are fixed which do justice to all sections?

Mr. Bevin: The wages and conditions of these workers are matters for settlement in the industry. I understand that following the recent strike the wages of the workers concerned were the subject of negotiations.

Miss Ward: Was the Minister consulted before the wage of 1s. 3d. per hour for potato pickers was fixed by the Ministry of Agriculture?

Mr. Bevin: No, the wages for the people engaged in agriculture are fixed by the Agricultural Wages Board.

Mr. Maxton: Is the Minister aware that this is happening on the Clyde too, and will he take steps to try and make shipyard wages compare favourably with others?

Mr. Bevin: The unions are still in existence, and are able to look after their members.

Mr. Maxton: I know they are still in existence, but they seem to think, in this matter, that they have the whole of eternity in front of them.

Man-Power

Mr. Simmonds: asked the Minister of Labour whether he is satisfied that the men and women whom it is proposed to withdraw from industry for service with the Forces can safely be so withdrawn without detriment to war production?

Mr. Bevin: Since the total supply of man-power is limited, a balance has to be struck between the different requirements and the proposals are designed to make the best use of man-power as a whole, after consultation with all the Departments concerned.

Mr. Simmonds: Is the Minister aware that there appears to be a necessity for a common policy between his own Department and the Supply Departments? Is he not aware of the growing tendency, which is highly dangerous, to suggest that in 1943 production must be secondary in the war effort?

Mr. Bevin: No, the Production and the Fighting Services have to march in step. I have no doubt that increased production in one direction must mean a cutting down in another direction.

Mr. Simmonds: Will the Minister give an undertaking to the House that where the Supply Departments insist on the importance of particular work, men and women will not be taken away before adequate substitutes can be proposed by his Department?

Mr. Bevin: No, I am not prepared to give that undertaking. My fight is a constant one against all the Departments and the Fighting Services and, if I may say so, against a large number of managements, to make them use labour more efficiently and more economically.

Sir R. Acland: Does the Minister take any interest in cases where the withdrawal of a negligible number of men is making a slashing reduction in output?

Mr. Bevin: I do not think that withdrawals have affected output. When the Debate takes place figures will show that output has gone up. I cannot afford at this stage in the war to have any wastage of labour at all.

Women, Engineering Industry

Mr. Simmonds: asked the Minister of Labour the approximate annual turnover for women in the engineering industry, up to the most recent convenient date, as a percentage of the average number of women employed during the year?

Mr. Bevin: It would not be in the public interest to give this information.

Mr. Simmonds: Would my right hon. Friend watch this matter carefully, because this figure is growing, and it would appear that there is an increasing movement of women in industry, so that they are leaving jobs at which they have become semi-skilled and taking up new work where they clearly cannot give the same degree of productivity?

Mr. Bevin: We are watching the process very carefully. If the employers would operate the Essential Work Order properly, the thing could be checked.

Mr. Simmonds: Does that not apply also to some of the National Service Officers?

Oral Answers to Questions — EDUCATION

Communist Leaflets, Solihull

Sir John Mellor: asked the President of the Board of Education upon what dates the distribution in May or June, 1942, of Communist leaflets, by permission of the headmistress at Malvern Hall School, Solihull, came to the notice of the Warwickshire Education Department, the Board of Education and the Board of Governors, respectively; what action was taken by each of these bodies and when; and what assurances have been obtained?

The President of the Board of Education (Mr. Butler): According to my information, the incident to which my hon. Friend refers was reported to His Majesty's Inspector on 25th September

and was brought by him to the notice of the chairman of the governing body on 28th September. The matter was not, I understand, laid by the latter before the governing body, and I have no evidence to show when it first came to the knowledge of the local education authority, though it was communicated privately to the chairman of the County Council in June last. The Board formally asked the authority in an official letter on 26th November for an assurance that no repetition of the incident would be permitted to occur and this assurance was given on 3rd December. I would add that my Department has always discountenanced the dissemination in schools under their jurisdiction of views which are distinctive of any political party.

Sir J. Mellor: In fairness to the Board of Governors of the school, will my right hon. Friend say why this matter was not brought to their attention by the county authority at an earlier date, and is it in, the public interest that an attempt should be made to hush up a matter of this kind?

Mr. Butler: I agree that it would have been preferable for the matter to have been considered by the governing body at an earlier date, but I have to leave discretion in this matter to the chairman of the County Council. As regards the incident in general, I have asked for and received an assurance from the authority. In the circumstances I think we had better regard the matter as closed.

Mr. Bowles: Is it not a fact that the headmistress allowed posters issued by the Junior Imperial League to be shown on the notice board, and is this not an indication of some sort of personal vendetta between the hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth (Sir J. Mellor) and the head mistress?

School Medical Officer, Essex (Calling-up)

Mr. Driberg: asked the President of the Board of Education whether he has considered the representations of the Essex Education Committee concerning the calling-up for military service of Dr. J. W. Pickup, senior school medical officer for the county of Essex; and whether he will reconsider his decision not to request this officer's deferment?

Mr. Butler: The most careful consideration has been given to the committee's


representations. I have been obliged to reach the decision to which the hon. Member refers in view of the medical man-power position. The staffing of the school medical service in Essex is stronger than in other comparable areas. I have also had to take into account the age group into which this officer falls, and the decision of the Central Medical War Committee on his case.

Mr. Driberg: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this officer has effective charge of the health of 120,000 school children; and, whatever the shortage of doctors, is not the health of children of paramount importance?

Mr. Butler: Yes, the health of the children is paramount; and I am glad to say that it has been looked after extraordinarily well, despite the very severe position in regard to medical man-power at the present time. I am in touch with the authority about the arrangements they are making to replace this able officer. I very much regret that we have had to adhere to this decision.

Mr. Kenneth Lindsay: Will my right hon. Friend reconsider this matter? If the senior medical officer of a county education committee has to be called up, we have got to a very bad stage.

Sir Francis Fremantle: Is not the health of the troops in the field even more paramount?

Secondary School Children (Withdrawals)

Sir Percy Hurd: asked the President of the Board of Education whether his attention has been drawn to the increasing practice of parents, as in Wiltshire, to break their undertakings with the education authorities and withdraw their children prematurely from secondary schools, thus sacrificing the children's interests, wasting the school places which other children might have taken, and upsetting the educational programmes of the authorities; and what action he proposes to take?

Mr. Butler: I am aware of and deprecate the tendency under war conditions for parents to withdraw their children prematurely from secondary schools. The main deterrent against this practice lies in the enforcement of school life agree-

ments. I understand that, in the case of the particular school which my hon. Friend has in mind, the agreements were so drafted and executed as to make their enforcement impracticable.

Sir P. Hurd: Will my right hon. Friend invite the Postmaster-General to instruct his local officials to desist from attracting these boys away from secondary schools in order to employ them as post office clerks?

Mr. Butler: I shall certainly do my best to make the attractions of education so great that even those offered by my right horn Friend cannot prevail.

Sir P. Hurd: Will my right hon. Friend ask him to do what I have suggested?

Mr. Lipson: Will my right hon Friend, in the interests of the children and in the national interest, broadcast to parents on the undesirability of withdrawing children from school before the proper time?

Mr. Butler: It depends partly on the agreements to which I have referred and partly on the appeal which the hon. Member mentioned. I will certainly keep the matter in mind.

Oral Answers to Questions — PUBLIC HEALTH

National Health Insurance (Capitation Fee)

Sir Leonard Lyle: asked the Minister of Health whether, in considering the claim of the medical insurance practitioners for an adequate capitation fee, he has taken or will take into consideration the extra work thrown on them by the extension of the panel scheme to black-coated workers and the diminution of their private practices owing to the claims imposed on them by the war effort?

The Minister of Health (Mr. Ernest Brown): Yes, Sir; all relevant facts have been taken into consideration.

Sir L. Lyle: Does my right hon. Friend not think that the medical profession have had a very raw deal, in view of the fact that their better-paying patients have diminished in number and their poorer-paying patients have increased? If they had been a bigger body, would they not have had more chance?

Tuberculosis, London

Dr. Russell Thomas: asked the Minister of Health the number of cases of non- pulmonary tuberculosis in the London area in 1938 and 1941; and the difference as a percentage?

Mr. E. Brown: The number of cases of non-pulmonary tuberculosis notified in the County of London was 1,281 in 1938 and 903 in 1941, representing a decrease of 29.5 per cent. as between those two years.

Dr. Thomas: asked the Minister of Health the number of deaths due to tuberculosis in children under 15 years of age in the London area in 1938 and 1941; and the difference as a percentage?

Mr. Brown: Deaths from tuberculosis among children under 15 years of age in the Administrative County of London numbered 197 in 1938 and 220 in 1941, the latter figure being 12 per cent. in excess of the former. The classification in each case is based upon the rules adopted in 1940, following the Fifth Decennial Revision of the International List of Causes of Death.

Venereal Disease

Sir P. Hurd: asked the Minister of Health whether he will make a statement on the character of the representations made to him by medical authorities and welfare workers as to the best means to combat venereal disease?

Mr. E. Brown: I have received representations from a number of medical and welfare organisations recommending some form of compulsory treatment, particularly for known sources of infection. Some welfare organisations have opposed compulsion and have called for an expansion of treatment facilities, social work, and education of the public, all of which have been and are being expanded.

Cancer Treatment

Sir George Mitcheson: asked the Minister of Health whether, within his knowledge, any investigation has been made by any competent authority into the use of H.11 Extract in the treatment of cancer?

Mr. E. Brown: The only way in which it is possible for such a treatment to be investigated is for the records of all patients who have been submitted to treatment to be published and laid open to

criticism and investigation by the medical profession. One such publication has already been made, in "Medical Press and Circular," 23rd April, 1941—"Anti-growth Substances in the Treatment of Cancer"—and I understand that another publication is in course of preparation.

Sir F. Fremantle: Is it not a fact that the British Empire Cancer Campaign has a special investigation committee investigating every new form of treatment, and that it has gone very thoroughly into all the new methods brought before it?

Diet

Sir P. Hurd: asked the Minister of Health what investigation is being made as to the effect of diet upon fertility in human beings?

Mr. E. Brown: I am not aware of any such investigation in progress.

Six P. Hurd: Will my right hon. Friend not initiate investigations of this kind?

Mr. Collindridge: Will the right hon. Gentleman have regard to the wider application of this Question to cover herds, and also note the herd mentality behind the Question?

Mr. Brown: There is another Hird—h, i, r, d.

Oral Answers to Questions — HOUSING

Rents, London

Mr. Astor: asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware of the difficulty being experienced by officers and their wives in getting accommodation at reasonable rates in London, owing to the higher rents being offered by Allied Forces; and whether he will consider strengthening existing machinery by limiting rents of all houses and flats to the rents paid on 1st January, 1940, except where increases in the landlords' costs can be proved?

Mr. E. Brown: I have no evidence of any special difficulty arising from the cause to which my hon. Friend refers, but I will look at once into any complaint which he may care to bring to my notice. As regards the second part of the Question, I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I recently gave to a Question on the subject by my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing (Sir F. Sanderson). I


am sending him a copy of that reply, together with a copy of my recent circular to local authorities.

Mr. R. C. Morrison: asked the Minister of Health whether he will extend the protection of the Rent Restrictions Acts at present applied to houses within the Metropolitan Police area, and of a rateable value not exceeding £100, to cover the home counties, in order to stop profiteering in this type of property?

Mr. E. Brown: I have no evidence which shows that the existing difference in limits leads to any serious anomalies and I do not consider, therefore, that the action suggested by my hon. Friend would be justified. I am, however, grateful to him for bringing a particular case to my attention. I am looking into this, and will communicate with my hon. Friend.

Sir Herbert Williams: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is a far greater grievance against tenants who, sublet than there is against landlords?

Mr. Astor: Is not my right hon. Friend aware that this is a very real difficulty for officers stationed in London? If a case is brought to his attention, will he take severe action against the landlord responsible?

Mr. Brown: Rents of houses and flats of the value of £100 and under are controlled in the London area.

Mr. Astor: Apart from rents of £100 and under, will my right hon. Friend take steps in the case of all houses and all flats?

Mr. Brown: My answer covers that point.

Mr. A. Edwards: If the right hon. Gentleman does take action, will he see that it applies also to furnished flats?

Rating and Valuation

Sir Frank Sanderson: asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that the Scott and Uthwatt Reports both urge a review of the existing rating and valuation machinery and, in view of this, as the publication of the Departmental Committee's Report on Valuation for Rates is an essential preliminary to the consideration of these matters, will he reconsider his decision in regard to their publication?

Mr. E. Brown: I have again considered my hon. Friend's suggestion, but see no reason to depart from the answer which I gave him and to my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow (Mr. Norman Bower) on 10th November.

Sir F. Sanderson: Is my right hon. Friend aware of the keen desire that the Reports should be published, and will he consider doing so?

Sir F. Sanderson: asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that one of the main reasons which gave rise to the alleged hardship among certain classes of ratepayers examined by the Departmental Committee on Valuation for Rates was due to the fact that the demand for houses available for letting was far in excess of the supply; and what he proposes to do to relieve the position?

Mr. Brown: I would refer my hon. Friend to the statement I made on 19th November last, during the Debate on the Address, from which he will see that I fully appreciate the hardship caused to large sections of the community by the shortage of houses due to the war and that I am anxious that the building of new houses should be resumed immediately circumstances permit.

Slough

Major-General Sir Alfred Knox: asked the Minister of Health whether he has now come to any decision as to the steps he is prepared to take in order to alleviate the shortage of houses at Slough?

Mr. E. Brown: No, Sir, but the difficulties to which my hon. and gallant Friend refers have been, and are still being, discussed by my officers with the local authority directly concerned and the authorities of adjoining areas. I can assure my hon. and gallant Friend that I have not overlooked my promise to discuss the whole question with him as soon as my inquiries have been completed.

Sir A. Knox: Will the right hon. Gentleman give a date upon which he will discuss this matter? The position is very urgent in Slough. It is appalling how the workers are overcrowded.

Mr. Brown: I am hoping to see my hon. and gallant Friend quite soon.

Mr. George Griffiths: Will the right hon. Gentleman also see what can be done about the Yorkshire people?

Outer London Areas (Empty Houses)

Mr. Norman Bower: asked the Minister of Health whether, in view of the acute housing shortage prevailing in certain of the outer London areas and the difficulty being experienced by war-workers and others in finding satisfactory accommodation, he will consider modifying his present policy and authorising the local authorities in the areas concerned to reduce the quota of empty houses which they are compelled to keep for people who may be bombed out in the future?

Mr. E. Brown: I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which I gave to a similar Question by the hon. Member for North Tottenham (Mr. R. C. Morrison) on 21st May. If my hon. Friend will inform me of the names of the particular areas which he has in mind I shall be glad to investigate the situation in detail.

Mr. R. C. Morrison: This position is much more acute than my right hon. Friend appears to realise. Cannot he do something to shorten the period of discussion and come down to decisions?

Mr. Brown: I will do so as soon as I can.

Furnished Premises (Rents)

Mr. Lipson: asked the Minister of Health whether he will take steps to extend the provisions of the Rent Restrictions Act so as to provide protection against exorbitant rents to tenants of furnished premises?

Mr. E. Brown: I would refer my hon. Friend to Sections 9 and 10 of the Rent Restrictions Act, 1920, and to the First Schedule to the Act of 1939, and to the circulars, of which I am sending him copies, in which I have asked local authorities to make full use of these powers.

Mr. Lipson: Is my right hon. Friend aware that when tenants of furnished flats complain to the local authorities they are given notice to quit and the local authorities have no power to protect them in any way? Will he consider the matter?

Mr. Brown: I could not accept that general statement of fact. Local authorities have power to prosecute those charging exorbitant rents. They have been active and taken my advice in a large

number of cases. I set up a small subcommittee to deal specially with the matter, and a large number of cases have been investigated. Many rents have been reduced by negotiation, and in the majority of cases where prosecution has been necessary penalties have been imposed.

Mr. Lipson: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether tenants have been given notice to quit the premises because of information furnished to the local authority?

Mr. Brown: I should like particulars of any such cases.

Oral Answers to Questions — MINISTRY OF PENSIONS (STAFF, ATTENDANCE AT CONFERENCES)

Mr. William Brown: asked the Minister of Pensions why his Director of Local Administration on 12th November, 1942, issued an instruction requiring permanent civil servants to obtain permission before accepting invitations extended to them in their individual capacity to attend outside meetings or conferences on matters of general public interest relating to their work or Department, and temporary civil servants before accepting invitations to meetings or conferences connected with their previous activities rather than their Government work as instructions issued in other Departments to permanent civil servants relate exclusively to invitations extended in their official capacity?

The Minister of Pensions (Sir Walter Womersley): The hon. Member would appear to be under some misapprehension. In the case of permanent civil servants the instruction in question refers to invitations to attend outside meetings or conferences on matters of general public interest relating to the work of my Department or of the particular member of it. In my view it is reasonable that Departmental approval for the acceptance of any such invitation should be required.

Mr. Brown: Is it not the case that the instructions of the Ministry of Pensions differ from the instructions issued by other Departments, and ought that to be so?

Sir W. Womersley: I notice that the hon. Member has a Question down on the general issue for the first Sitting Day in the next series of Sitting Days, and I think we had better await the reply to that Question before going into the matter.

Mr. Brown: The point here is that I should like to ask, whatever the merits of the general instructions may be, why the orders issued to the staff of the Ministry of Pensions differ from those issued elsewhere?

Sir W. Womersley: I should have to await the reply to the hon. Member's Question before I could give that information.

Oral Answers to Questions — ARMED FORCES (PENSIONS AND GRANTS)

Mr. Lipson: asked the Minister of Pensions why he has refused a War Ser vice Grant to cover school fees of three guineas a term to the wife of a soldier serving in the Middle East, of whose name and small financial resources he has been informed; and will he reconsider his decision and agree to pay the fees?

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions (Mr. Paling): In the case I believe the hon. Member has in mind the school fees were taken into account in considering the amount of the War Service Grant. I am writing to the hon. Member, giving him some further particulars he may perhaps wish to have.

Mr. Lipson: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this woman has only a very meagre income, and should not these fees be paid; is he prepared to reconsider the matter?

Mr. Paling: I have already indicated that these are paid in the weekly amount allowed in the grant now. If after the hon. Member has read the full statement he is not satisfied, perhaps he will see me again.

Oral Answers to Questions — INDIA (DISTURBANCES)

Mr. Sorensen: asked the Secretary of State for India whether he has any information respecting disturbances in India during the last fortnight; how many punishments by flogging have taken place since last March; whether he now has any particulars respecting murder by burning; and when a full report and statistics on loss of life, destruction of property, defiance of the law, criminal acts and number of arrests is likely to be available?

The Secretary of State for India (Mr. Amery): Apart from an attack on a

police station in Bihar there have been no reports of mob violence in the past fortnight. Sabotage in minor forms and other symptoms of lawlessness persist in Bengal and Bombay, and one case of derailment with loss of life is reported from Assam. As regards the remainder of the Question my information is not complete and up-to-date, but I have asked the Government of India to furnish me with a comprehensive report on the points referred to.

Mr. Sorensen: Can the right hon. Gentleman say when that report is likely to be available, and, meanwhile, is there any evidence of murder by burning?

Mr. Amery: I have telegraphed for a report, which, naturally being a full one, will, I presume, take a little time to complete, and it will come by air mail. There certainly were at least two cases of murder by burning.

Oral Answers to Questions — CHANNEL ISLANDERS (DEPORTATION)

Mr. Ammon: asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has any recent information as to the number of persons deported from Guernsey to Germany?

The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Herbert Morrison): I regret that no information is yet available as to the total number of persons deported from Guernsey. No official lists have yet been received, although they have been asked for by the International Red Cross Committee and by the Protecting Powers.

Mr. Ammon: I take it that my right hon. Friend will press for this information as the absence of it is causing a good deal of anxiety?

Mr. Morrison: I appreciate that fact, and my hon. Friend can be sure that I shall do everything that I can.

Mr. Ammon: asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that the Channel Islanders deported to Germany are in Camp Stalag VI and not an officers' camp as reported; whether this indicates any breach of understanding; and whether he is making a protest through the Protecting Power against this?

Mr. Morrison: The answer to the first part of the Question is that postcards received by friends show that a number of persons deported from the Channel Islands are now in a camp known as Stalag VI. The address of the camp in which civilian internees are detained does not indicate any differentiation in treatment. Civilian internees are not detained in camps with military personnel and no question of rank arises in connection with the treatment of civilians. The fact therefore that some civilians who were detained in a camp with the name of Oflag are now detained in a camp with the name of Stalag does not give ground for thinking that there has been a breach of the agreement relating to the treatment of civilian internees.

Oral Answers to Questions — CIVIL DEFENCE

Fire-Guard Duty

Sir F. Sanderson: asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that whereas the City of London is regarded as a danger zone for the carrying out of fire-watching duties at night, the city of Westminster, which was almost equally badly bombed, is not so considered; and, on behalf of the women fire-watchers who have been compelled to do duty in the dangerous area of Westminster, will he consider the amendment of this Order to ensure that women will not be asked to do fire-watching until all available men have been utilised?

Mr. H. Morrison: The special Compulsory Enrolment Order for the City of London, which applies only to men, was made because having regard to the extremely small resident population it was necessary to require persons working in the City to do fire-guard duty in any part of it even though they lived outside. I cannot say in advance what areas will be the subject of special schemes under the new Order, but in all areas women will not be required to do fire prevention duties at premises where they work until all available men who work at those premises are doing the full amount of duties for which they are liable.

Sir F. Sanderson: Does not my right hon. Friend consider that it is both expedient and wise that all districts, as far as practicable, should be treated alike and that where there are men available no women should be called upon to serve?

Mr. Morrison: I have already informed my hon. Friend that, if men are available, women will not be called upon to serve, but it is difficult for me to lay down any dictum that all districts should be treated alike, because unfortunately very few districts are alike.

Mr. Brooke: asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that the efficiency of street fire parties in London will be seriously weakened if all the experienced street fire party leaders and street captains are compulsorily taken away to do ordinary fire-watching in business premises elsewhere; and whether he will therefore arrange that they are not withdrawn from their special duties for this different purpose, especially as Circular 158/42, issued by his Department, describes them as the basis of the whole fire guard organisation?

Mr. H. Morrison: I attach great importance to the efficient organisation of street fire parties through party leaders and street captains, and the point raised by my hon. Friend is being considered in connection with the pending changes in the Fire Prevention Orders.

Detentions (Advisory Committees)

Sir Irving Albery: asked the Home Secretary how many of the chairmen or members of the Advisory Committees dealing with detention under Regulation 18b have tendered their resignation, resulting from the non-acceptance of the advice tendered?

Mr. H. Morrison: None, Sir.

Sir I. Albery: In view of the apparent lack of confidence of the right hon. Gentleman in these chairmen of Advisory Committees, will he take steps to remedy the position?

Mr. Morrison: I cannot see the point of my hon. Friend's Question.

Sir I. Albery: The right hon. Gentleman must be well aware that he has frequently disagreed with the advice of his Advisory Committees and, therefore, presumably he has not sufficient confidence in them.

Mr. Morrison: My hon. Friend and I often disagree, but it does not prevent us from talking to each other.

National Fire Service

Mr. Rhys Davies: asked the Home Secretary whether before, and since, the


introduction of the 48/24 hour scheme, statistics are kept of the incidence of sickness among members of the fire service; and can he give figures in this connection comparing them with the rate before that scheme was introduced and the known rate of sickness among the general public?

Mr. H. Morrison: The 48/24 hour duty system has been introduced gradually and in some areas only very recently. No statistics at present available would form a reliable basis for a comparison such as my hon. Friend suggests, but the point is one which will be watched.

Mr. Davies: If the right hon. Gentleman cannot take a census of all the sickness before and after the introduction of this scheme, would he be good enough to select six or 12 stations and make comparisons between the incidence of sickness now and before the introduction of the 48/24 hour scheme?

Mr. Morrison: I have said that the matter will be watched, and I will consider that point. We have some records, but they are not fully conclusive, though they are rather interesting.

Mr. Butcher: asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that an issue of uniform clothing is now being made to young women performing telephone duties in the National Fire Service for 48 hours per month; and whether he proposes to continue such issue?

Mr. Morrison: Yes, Sir. The scale of issue laid down for part-time women in the National Fire Service allows for the issue of one set of uniform. On recent reconsideration of the matter I have issued instructions that newly recruited part-time women should not be given uniform until they have undergone training, established their usefulness, and have given an indication that they will remain in the Service.

Mr. Butcher: While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for that reply, may I ask whether he really thinks that the best utilisation of our resources is to supply these heavy uniforms for young women?

Mr. Morrison: I think it is desirable that in a fine service a high degree of esprit de corps and discipline should be maintained, and I think uniforms are conducive to that.

Mr. Butcher: Has the right hon. Gentleman any complaint about the London Telephone Service, which seems to get on quite well in ordinary clothes?

Mr. Morrison: I have no complaint about the London Telephone Service, but a lot of other people have.

Personnel (Transfer)

Mr. Simmonds: asked the Home Secretary the number of full-time Civil Defence workers on the latest convenient date who had been notified to the Ministry of Labour as available for transfer to other occupations but who had not at that time left the Civil Defence services; and what was the average number of weeks since such notification had been made?

Mr. H. Morrison: I regret that the information is not available in the precise form desired by my hon. Friend. Approximately five-sixths of the programme of transfer from the Civil Defence General Services to His Majesty's Forces, or to industry, had, however, been completed at the end of October.

Mr. Simmonds: Would the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to give an assurance that he will review the situation personally in three or four weeks' time?

Mr. Morrison: Yes, Sir. I do review it from time to time. The responsibility for transfer is on the Ministry of Labour, but I will keep informed on the matter.

Oral Answers to Questions — PRISONS (STATISTICS)

Mr. W. Brown: asked the Home Secretary whether officials above the rank of chief officer in the prison service have been brought within the special provisions of the Superannuation Act for Prison Officers, 1919?

Mr. H. Morrison: No, Sir.

Mr. Brown: asked the Home Secretary the rank and salary of the Governors and Deputy-Governors of the prisons at Brixton, Holloway, Durham, Birmingham, Liverpool, Bristol, Dartmoor and Manchester; the class of prisoners received in each prison; and the approximate numbers of each class of prisoner in custody at each establishment on 1st November, 1942, respectively.

Mr. H. Morrison: As the answer involves a number of figures, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT. I may say that in the time available it has only been possible to obtain figures for the total population on 3rd November last in each of the prisons

Establishment.
Governor.
Deputy Governor (s).
Class of Prisoner received.
Population on 3/11/42.


Rank.
Salary on 1/11/42.
Rank.
Salary on 1/11/42.
Male.
Female.




£

£





Brixton
I
1,000
—
—
Unconvicted prisoners including remand and trial prisoners, debtors, detained persons, etc.
329
—


Holloway
I
1,000
Woman
377 4s.
All classes of women (and also including two male detainees).
2
510


Durham
I (acting)
910
—
—
AH classes Young Prisoners Centre.
459
105


Birmingham
II (acting)
750
—
—
All classes
325
123


Liverpool
I (acting)
880
—
—
All classes of men
390
—


Bristol
II
800
—
—
All classes of men. Young Prisoners Centre.
191
—


Dartmoor
I
1,000†
IV
504*
Penal Servitude Prisoners
475
—


Manchester
I (acting)
885
IV
504








Woman
350
All classes
551
170


† Plus Disadvantage allowance—£30 a year.
* Plus Disadvantage allowance—£18 a year.

In addition to the salary paid to Governors and Deputy Governors, quarters are provided or an allowance is paid in aid of rent. Medical attention is also provided under certain conditions. The salary scales of the rank of Governors and Deputy Governors referred to are as follow:—


I
…
£850—£30—£1,000.


II
…
£725—£25—£825


IV
…
£450—£18—£550


Woman Deputy Governor
…
£320—£18—£420

Oral Answers to Questions — MULTIPLE STORES (PILFERING)

Mr. Mort: asked the Home Secretary the number of people prosecuted for pilfering from multiple stores over a recent period and the number in a comparable pre-war period?

Mr. H. Morrison: The records kept for the purpose of criminal statistics do not distinguish between the different kinds of shops from which goods are pilfered, and I regret, therefore, that I am unable to furnish my hon. Friend with the information for which he asks. In the Metropolitan Police District 2,029 offences of larceny from shops and stalls were reported in the period from 1st January to 30th November, 1942, whereas 1,424 such offences were reported in the corresponding period of the year 1938.

referred to. Information as to the numbers of each class of prisoner at each establishment on that date is being obtained, and I will forward these particulars to the hon. Member as soon as they are available.

Following is the answer:

Mr. Mort: As the Minister will agree that there has been an increase in pilfering, does not that increase justify some measures being taken to protect the goods at these stores, as this is a great temptation to people in these days?

Mr. Morrison: It is the case that in the recent experience of the Metropolitan Police there has been an increase. There are, of course, special difficulties in packing and so on at this moment, but I can assure my hon. Friend that anything the police can do I shall encourage them to do.

Oral Answers to Questions — CHURCH BELLS (RINGING)

Mr. Driberg: asked the Prime Minister whether he can now make any


statement concerning church bells and, in particular, whatever may be decided as a general policy whether he will allow the ringing of them on Christmas morning?

Mr. Stokes: asked the Prime Minister whether he will consider changing over the invasion warning from the ringing of church bells to a signal by siren and thereby permit the renewed ringing of the bells for the purpose for which they were intended, especially as in some districts bells recently rung were not heard at all and cannot therefore be a satisfactory invasion signal?

The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr. Attlee): This whole matter is under consideration.

Mr. Stokes: Can my right hon. Friend tell us when that consideration will come to an end and when the Government will be able to take a decision on this matter?

Mr. Attlee: I do not think the consideration will take very long, but I could not say how long to-day.

Mr. Driberg: If the whole matter is under consideration, can the right hon. Gentleman answer the latter part of my Question?

Mr. Attlee: I think the matter would be decided before there was any danger of running into Christmas.

Miss Rathbone: If Christmas bells are considered to be joy bells, ought they to be rung at a time when a nation which has given us the Bible is being, exterminated by the wholesale massacre of men, women and children? Would it not be rather a mockery?

Mr. Granville: When this question is being investigated, will the Government bear in mind that in the event of small raids on this country the civilian populaton would have no idea at all of what warning they would receive?

Mr. Attlee: I am sure that point will be noted.

Oral Answers to Questions — COMMODITY CONTROL SCHEMES

Sir H. Williams: asked the Prime Minister whether he will arrange for the publication of a White Paper setting forth the Government's plans for suppressing cartels, and whether these imply the withdrawal of their participation in

an approval of the Rubber Restriction Scheme, the Tin Control Scheme, the denunciation of the Wheat Agreement, and a refusal to approve after the war any arrangement between the British iron and steel industry and the Western Europe iron and steel producers?

Mr. Attlee: No, Sir. The future of commodity control schemes which existed before the war is not a matter on which any pronouncement can be made at the present time. These and similar schemes, whether between Governments or between industries, must be and will be studied in connection with the international discussions foreshadowed in the Atlantic Charter and the Mutual Aid Agreement.

Sir H. Williams: Am I to take it that when the right hon. Gentleman stated in a speech that cartels were to be suppressed, it was not a statement of policy but of opinion?

Mr. Attlee: No such statement was made.

Sir H. Williams: But it was in the right hon. Gentleman's own speech, on which I based the text of this Question.

Mr. Attlee: I do not know what the hon. Gentleman is referring to. I made no such statement.

Mr. Stokes: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the International Tin Committee have already drawn up post-war plans? Will he consult with the Minister of Production, who knows a great deal about this matter?

Mr. Attlee: A great many post-war plans are being drawn up by a variety of people.

Mr. Graham White: Would my right hon. Friend look at the Tin Control Scheme which was recently passed by this House and satisfy himself, with his colleagues, that it is in conformity with the conditions of the Atlantic Charter?

Oral Answers to Questions — CHURCHILL TANK

Mr. Stokes: asked the Prime Minister the names of the highest authorities on tank design and production whom he consulted in the summer of 1940 as a result of which it was decided to produce the Churchill tank without trial?

Mr. Attlee: My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has authorised me to say that he consulted the Tank Board and the Defence Committee (Supply), and in view of the circumstances at that time he personally took the responsibility of ordering production to proceed without awaiting the result of the trials, which would have meant a delay of many months.

Mr. Stokes: Is my right hon. Friend able to tell the House whether any member of the Tank Board at that time had had any previous experience of tanks in action before he took his seat on the Board?

Mr. Attlee: Perhaps my hon. Friend will give me notice of that Question.

Mr. Stokes: Will my right hon. Friend give me the names of the members of the Tank Board?

Mr. Shinwell: Surely it is quite wrong to authorise the production of such an important munition of war as a Churchill tank without it undergoing some trials? Has it not been obvious that, in spite of the urgent need for producing tanks, the Churchill tank has not been satisfactory?

Oral Answers to Questions — CONDUCT OF MR. CLAUD MULLINS

Mr. Evelyn Walkden: asked the Prime Minister whether he will give facilities for a discussion on the Motion standing in the name of the hon. Member for Doncaster and others relating to the conduct of Mr. Claud Mullins?

[That this House regrets and views with serious displeasure the remarks of Mr. Claud Mullins at the South Western police court that the word "housekeeper" usually means something immoral, and calls upon the Home Secretary to make it plain that no magistrate should make gratuitously such derogatory observations and to take steps to remove a magistrate who has such an idea of his judicial functions.]

The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Eden): I understand that my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has received communications from the magistrate and proposes to make a statement in the near future?

Mr. Walkden: Will that statement be made during our next series of Sittings?

Mr. Eden: My right hon. Friend hopes to make it on the next Sitting Day.

Oral Answers to Questions — AGRICULTURE

Workers' Wages

Mr. Rostron Duckworth: asked the Minister of Agriculture the average weekly increase in the wages of agricultural labourers now as compared with 3rd September, 1939?

The Minister of Agriculture (Mr. R. S. Hudson): The average of the weekly minimum county rates for men fixed under the Agricultural Wages (Regulation) Acts has increased by 25s. 3d. since 3rd September, 1939. The average increase in actual wages and earnings has probably been higher than this, but statistics are not available of the actual wages paid.

Aerodrome Grass (Utilisation)

Mr. Loftus: asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is taking steps to ensured the utilisation of grass cut on all aerodromes as dried grass for stock thereby both saving shipping tonnage and aiding increased milk production?

Mr. Hudson: Arrangements have been made with the Air Ministry for contact to be made locally between station commanders and the county war agricultural executive committees, whereby the latter assume responsibility for the use of suitable parts of aerodromes as arable, or as grass for hay, silage or drying.

Mr. Loftus: Can my right hon. Friend tell me whether any of this grass—a most valuable food—has already been dried and utilised for cattle feeding?

Mr. Hudson: I could not say without notice.

Mr. Loftus: If I put a Question down, may I have a reply later?

Mr. Hudson: I doubt it.

Foxes (Destruction)

Mr. John Dugdale: asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is satisfied that foxes are being as rapidly and economically exterminated by foxhunting as they are by any other method; and, if not, whether he will instruct masters of foxhounds that they must either show better results or cease to operate during wartime?

Mr. Hudson: The answer to the first part of the Question is "Yes, Sir;" the second part does not, therefore, arise.

Mr. Dugdale: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the figures given by masters of foxhounds themselves show that this method is uneconomical? Will he inquire into these figures?

Lieut.-Colonel Heneage: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that where foxes have been exterminated, the rat population, in many cases, has very much increased?

Mr. Dugdale: Will the right hon. Gentleman give me an answer? If not, in view of the unsatisfactory state of affairs, I must give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment.

Mr. Hudson: I have had no complaint, but if the hon. Member has any specific complaint, perhaps he will let me know.

Milk Recording Scheme

Mr. De la Bère: asked the Minister of Agriculture whether, in connection with the milk recording scheme, which is to be introduced in 1943, he will make every endeavour to get 20,000 new milk recording herds; and, with a view to ensuring success and greater production, consider giving a higher price per gallon to those who adopt the milk recording scheme and maintain a high average of milk per cow?

Mr. Hudson: The new scheme will be administered by the Milk Marketing Board. Every endeavour will be made to bring before dairy farmers the advantages of making full use of the extended facilities for recording the yields of their cows. As regards the second part of the, Question, I do not feel able to adopt my hon. Friend's suggestion. The increased production and the saving of feeding-stuffs which should result from the adoption of milk recording will bring their own reward.

Mr. De la Bère: Does my right hon. Friend realise how much I want to help him? Further, does he realise how difficult it is to do so, because in all his schemes there is a financial restriction which does not encourage farmers to produce?

Mr. Hudson: The whole object of this scheme was to encourage, farmers to produce more milk.

Mr. De la Bère: It is very difficult to help my right hon. Friend.

Wheat Yield

Mr. Sorensen: asked the Minister of Agriculture the average wheat yield per acre from land cultivated respectively by county war agricultural committees and by private farmers, and Essex in particular; and what is the total acreage in each case?

Mr. Hudson: I regret that this information is not available.

Mr. Sorensen: In view of the interest in this matter and the importance of finding out which method is the better, cannot the right hon, Gentleman get the approximate figures?

Mr. Hudson: Not without a great deal of labour, and, in view of the shortage of staff, I do not think that would be justified

Women's Land Army

Mr. Stephen: asked the Minister of Agriculture whether members of the Women's Land Army are entitled to the same pension rights for disability as are accorded to the Auxiliary Territorial Ser vice, the Women's Royal Naval Service and the Women's Auxiliary Air Force Service; and, if not, whether he will consider the introduction of the necessary legislation to provide such facilities?

Mr. Hudson: No, Sir. Members of the Land Army are employed as civilian agricultural workers, a very large majority by individual farmers and market gardeners. Their position is comparable with that of the thousands of other civilian war workers who have been transferred to employment away from home but for whom no special disability scheme is in operation.

Oral Answers to Questions — POLICE FORCES (AMALGAMATION PROPOSALS)

Earl Winterton: asked the Home Secretary whether he can now make a statement as to his intentions in the matter of the amalgamation of police forces?

Mr. H. Morrison: With Mr. Speaker's permission, I will make a statement at the end of Questions.

Later:

Mr. Morrison: I am glad to have an opportunity of informing the House of the proposals which I have made for the amalgamation of police forces under the powers conferred upon me by the Defence Regulations. In accordance with the undertaking which I gave during the Debate on 14th October, I have forwarded details of the proposals to the police authorities concerned, and until I have considered their views I am not in a position to take any final decisions. The proposals which I have communicated to them are as follow:—
That in Kent, where, in addition to the county force, there are nine separate borough forces, all these forces should be amalgamated with the county force:
That in Surrey the borough forces of Guildford and Reigate should be amalgamated with the county force:
That the Isle of Wight county force and the Winchester borough force should be amalgamated with Hampshire county force:
That the borough force of Salisbury should be amalgamated with Wiltshire county force and the borough force of Penzance with Cornwall county force:
That in Sussex all the forces should be amalgamated, so that the two county forces of East and West Sussex and those of the county boroughs of Brighton, Eastbourne and Hastings and the borough of Hove will form one force.
In the course of the Debate I said that I did not propose to interfere with the larger, substantial police forces, and that if I did I would make a special announcement to the House. Except in Sussex, each of the forces to be amalgamated with the county force has an authorised regular strength of considerably less than 100. In the case of Sussex more substantial forces are involved. The two county forces have each an establishment of over 300, and Brighton of over 200. The military importance of Sussex needs no emphasis, and it is clearly desirable from the point of view of military operations that there should be one police force for the whole area, more particularly in view of the fact that at present responsibility for this important part of the south coast is divided between no less than six forces. Despite the fact that three substantial forces are involved, I am of opinion that,

subject to any representations which the police authorities may put before me, I ought to proceed with the scheme. Before doing so, however, I think it right, in accordance with the spirit of the undertaking which I gave, that the House should be informed of this proposal.

Earl Winterton: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that more than one of us representing constituencies in the areas affected believe that his proposals are absolutely necessary in the national interest and very much hope that he will stand by them, after having listened, of course, to representations from interested parties?

Mr. Morrison: I am very much obliged to the Noble Lord. He may be sure that I have given very full weight to all the considerations involved, but naturally, as he says, I must take into full account the representations of local authorities.

Mr. Clynes: Does my right hon. Friend's statement mean that until final decisions are reached there will be further consultations with interested parties?

Mr. Morrison: Yes. Arrangements have already been made for the Home Office to meet police authorities, and that is actually proceeding.

Captain Peter Macdonald: Before a final decision is reached in these amalgamations, will the right hon. Gentleman give special consideration to the position of the Isle of Wight, in view of the fact that in this case two separate county forces are to be amalgamated, each with their own separate organisations and forces? This is essential, in view of the geographical stiuation of the Isle of Wight and its importance in the defence of the country.

Mr. Morrison: Yes, I will take that fully into account. The fact that the Isle of Wight is an island leads to arguments both ways. But it is an area of importance, and I think it is important that it should be tied up with a big force. I will, however, certainly give consideration to the point the hon. and gallant Gentleman has mentioned.

Sir William Wayland: Are we to understand that this is only a war-time measure?

Mr. Morrison: Yes, it is taken under the Defence Regulations.

Sir I. Albery: When the right hon. Gentleman explains the position to the police authorities I hope it will be made clear to them that his proposals have not received final approval in the House and that negotiations with him will in no way be interfered with?

Mr. Morrison: I shall conduct these negotiations as a responsible Minister. Indeed, the Defence Regulation under which I am acting is already in force, but naturally I am the servant of the House, and I must conduct myself as the Minister responsible for the Department and carrying all the responsibility.

Sir A. Knox: Is the right hon. Gentleman taking any other action?

Mr. Morrison: At the moment this is all I am doing, but it does not necessarily preclude me from proceeding elsewhere if and when I am convinced that military considerations require it.

Sir Adam Maitland: Has the right hon. Gentleman had consultations with the Association of Municipal Corporations—I understand that he promised that that would be done—and has he had any objections to the proposals? Is it perfectly clear to the House that the measures are purely for the duration of the war?

Mr. Morrison: Yes, there were consultations, not only with the Association of Municipal Corporations, which I think I saw twice, but with the County Councils Association and the Association of Non-County Boroughs. The Association of Municipal Corporations and the Association of Non-County Boroughs objected to the Defence Regulation. On the last point which the hon. Gentleman mentioned, the action is taken under a Defence Regulation, which lapses at the end of the war, but obviously I cannot prejudice the action of any Government at the time which may wish to bring in legislation to continue it.

Sir A. Maitland: Has the right hon. Gentleman consulted the Association of Municipal Corporations with regard to his proposal?

Mr. Morrison: If the hon. Gentleman means this particular proposal, no, and I gave no such undertaking. The undertaking that I gave was to consult the police authorities concerned, and that I am doing.

Oral Answers to Questions — JUVENILE DELINQUENCY (INVESTIGATION)

Mr. Sorensen: asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware of any similar suggestion to that of the formation of a junior criminal investigation department brought to the notice of a chief constable by the watch committee chairman of a county borough; whether police or municipal authorities have been given power or authority to implement any such proposals; and whether he will undertake to disapprove any initiative in that direction?

Mr. H. Morrison: The answer to the first two parts of the Question is in the negative. As regards the last part, very cogent arguments would have to be advanced before I could be persuaded of the desirability of such an innovation.

Mr. Sorensen: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the suggestion has already been received with dismay in many parts of the country, and will he not take steps to prevent any kind of dangerous innovation of this character?

Mr. Morrison: In the absence of more precise particulars, I do not think I ought to say more than I have said.

Mr. Sorensen: Has not the right hon. Gentleman got those particulars already?

Mr. Morrison: No, Sir, not fully. I have given my hon. Friend a not discouraging answer, and I think he ought to be reasonably happy.

Oral Answers to Questions — JEWISH REFUGEES (VISAS)

Miss Rathbone: asked the Home Secretary whether, in view of the situation brought about by the mass deportation and massacres of Jews in Poland and other Axis-occupied countries, he will revise the Regulations which have hitherto restricted the issue of visas and transit visas to certain very small and rigidly defined categories of refugees, so as to facilitate the rescue of the few who do have a chance of escaping massacre?

Mr. H. Morrison: I am afraid my hon. Friend is under some misapprehension in thinking that an alteration of the policy with regard to the issue of visas would have any substantial effect in achieving the purpose which she has in mind, but she has been good enough to write to me


on the subject, and I have suggested that she should confer with my Department on the points raised in her letter.

Miss Rathbone: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I propose to raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible moment.

Oral Answers to Questions — NATIONAL FINANCE

Civil Defence Personnel (Estate Duties)

Mr. John Dugdale: asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether reliefs from Estate Duty- similar to those accorded to members of the Home Guard who die from wounds inflicted, accidents occurring, or disease contracted whilst on duty, may be given to members of the Civil Defence services?

The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir Kingsley Wood): I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply I gave to the hon. and gallant Member for Hampstead (Flight-Lieutenant Challen) on 28th July last.

Bank for International Settlements

Mr. G. Strauss: asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can assure the House that the Bank for Inter national Settlements granted no new credits to enemy countries?

Sir K. Wood: Yes, Sir. The Bank for International Settlements, in accordance with its policy of strict neutrality, has refrained from granting any such new credits since the war began.

Mr. Strauss: Can the right hon. Gentleman also give an assurance that no accounts belonging to neutral countries have been transferred to Axis countries?

Sir K. Wood: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will put that Question on the Paper.

Mr. Strauss: asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is in a position to assure the House that no enemy assets are held, or have been held, at any time since 3rd September, 1939, in this country under the disguise of the assets belonging to the Bank for Inter national Settlements; that no enemy assets have evaded the Custodian of Enemy Property through being held in the name of that Bank; and that no assets held in

this country in the name of that Bank have been used by enemy Powers for financing subversive activities and espionage?

Sir K. Wood: Yes, Sir. The Bank for International Settlements gave specific assurance that during the war they will not carry out any transactions or make any payments on behalf of one belligerent in the country, of another with which the former is at war, and that they will not hold any assets of such a belligerent in their own name in the country of another, and I have no reason to think that these assurances are not being carried out.

Mr. Strauss: asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether any consultation took place between the directors of the Bank for International Settlements prior to the appointment of the new chairman?

Sir K. Wood: I can only answer so far as the British directors are concerned. With my concurrence they communicated with the President approving the proposal for this appointment. I do not know what consultations may have taken place among the other directors.

Mr. Strauss: As the post of chairman has been vacant for over two years and the directors do not meet, what is the purpose of now electing a chairman?

Sir K. Wood: There is a number of reasons. One of the reasons which caused me to give my consent is that I think it strengthens the neutrality of the bank.

Service Personnel (Broadcasting Fees)

Mr. Astor: asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer on what grounds the Treasury takes half the fees of serving officers and men who broadcast?

Sir K. Wood: The arrangement to which my hon. Friend refers applies to cases in which the officer is invited to give his talk by reason of experience acquired in the course of his official duties. In such cases it is considered that the fee should be shared between the officer concerned and the Department in whose service he has gained the knowledge which gives value to his broadcast.

Mr. Astor: In view of the fact that no one connected with any other business or university has to give up half the share in the fees which he may receive for


broadcasting, is it not a fact that this means that there is an unfair discrimination against employees of the Crown and the Services, and will my right hon. Friend remedy this at the earliest possible moment?

Sir K. Wood: No, Sir, that is not the case. For instance, a civil servant would be in the same category.

Sir H. Williams: Does the Chancellor then proceed to take another half of what is left?

Sir K. Wood: That goes in taxation.

Sir A. Knox: Would it not be better that the Treasury should deduct three-quarters of these people's fees in order to deter them from broadcasting?

Sir William Davison: Is not this action on the part of the Treasury very mean towards these men?

Mr. Astor: Will not my right hon. Friend take the obvious opinion of the House?

Sir K. Wood: I will gladly look at the matter again.

Armed Forces (Dependants' Earnings)

Mr. Pethick-Lawrence: asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, with a view to encouraging the civil population to promote the war effort, he will extend the disregard of the first 15s. or 20s. a week of earnings of wives for War Service Grant purposes to other dependants of persons in the Forces?

Sir K. Wood: The disregard of the first 15s. or 20s. of wives for War Service Grants purposes was approved in order to provide a special inducement to the wives of serving men to undertake paid employment assisting the war effort. The information at present at my disposal does not lead me to think that the present rule operates to deter dependants other than wives from accepting employment assisting the war effort.

Destitute Widows (Relief)

Mr. Channon: asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, as some time must elapse before the recommendations of the Beveridge Report, even if adopted, were put into effect, he will consider some early form of alleviation other than public assistance to those borderline cases of

destitute widows who do not come under any national scheme, either through the non-contributions of their late husbands or the impossibility of themselves working?

Sir K. Wood: Apart from matters mentioned in the Gracious Speech, I am afraid that I cannot undertake to consider particular classes in advance of the close examination of Sir William Beveridge's proposals which my right hon. and learned Friend the Paymaster-General promised on the 1st of this month.

Oral Answers to Questions — DOMINIONS (SOCIAL SECURITY MEASURES)

Sir Ralph Glyn: asked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether, with a view to aiding immigration to all parts of the British Commonwealth, especially after the war, he will consider the possibility of consulting with the High Commissioners of all the Dominions on the prospect of expanding any scheme for social security on a reciprocity basis in order that those who pay contributions towards any national scheme shall not suffer financially; and whether, as regards New Zealand, any provision already exists for this purpose?

The Under Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs (Mr. Emrys-Evans): Attention was drawn in the last Report of the Oversea Settlement Board to the importance of securing reciprocity in social security measures as an influence in encouraging migration overseas, and it is also recognised in paragraph 39 of Sir William Beveridge's recent Report. All these matters are now receiving consideration. Consultation with the Dominions as to reciprocity must necessarily await a decision on the broad issues of policy involved in the Report. No arrangements for reciprocity with New Zealand have as yet been made under United Kingdom legislation.

Mr. Granville: In view of the fact that Members of this House are Ministers in the Dominions and the Commonwealth, will the hon. Gentleman initiate discussions with Dominion and Commonwealth Governments on the Beveridge Report now?

Mr. Emrys-Evans: I think my answer covers that.

Oral Answers to Questions — PALESTINE (TRADE DISPUTES ORDER)

Mr. David Adams: asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that the Palestine Government have imposed on the workers of that territory restrictions comprised in British war time legislation relating to trades disputes, man-power and wages stabilisation, but without issuing any order protecting the rights of the workers or for the amelioration of working conditions or the preservation of collective bargaining; and whether he will take steps to remedy these disabilities?

Mr. Emrys-Evans: I have been asked to reply. I assume that my hon. Friend is referring to the Defence (Trade Disputes) Order, 1942, which was made under the Defence Regulations last December. So far as collective bargaining is concerned, it is my right hon. Friend's desire that this should be encouraged in all Colonial territories in every possible way. This desire is shared by the Palestine Government, and the order provides that when a trade dispute is reported to the District Commissioner, the District Commissioner shall endeavour to conciliate the parties by all means at his disposal, and shall for this purpose make use of any existing machinery for the settlement of disputes as may seem to him appropriate to this end. With regard to the remaining matters mentioned by my hon. Friend, the Palestine Government are fully alive to the desirability of the early introduction of fundamental labour legislation, and it is hoped that this will be prepared at an early date now that a Labour Department has been established.

Mr. Adams: Am I to understand that the same restrictions will be applied to the workers in Palestine under that Order as in this country?

Mr. Emrys-Evans: Yes, Sir.

Oral Answers to Questions — ROYAL AIR FORCE (VOLUNTEER RESERVE)

Mr. Purbrick: asked the Secretary of State for Air whether an officer of the Volunteer Reserve of the Royal Air Force can attain Air Rank in any branch of the air service when such is available and for which he is qualified by merit?

The Secretary of State for Air (Sir Archibald Sinclair): Yes, Sir.

Mr. Purbrick: How many officers of the Volunteer Reserve in the Royal Air Force have Air Rank?

Sir A. Sinclair: Three.

Oral Answers to Questions — WOMEN'S LAND ARMY, SCOTLAND

Mr. Stephen: asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what arrangements are made for repair of boots and shoes and the rubber boots of members of the Women's Land Army in Scotland; and whether he will consider taking steps to secure for this service the same clothing and boot provisions as are provided for the Auxiliary Territorial Service, the Women's Royal Naval Service and the Women's Auxiliary Air Force Service?

The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Allan Chapman): Members of the Women's Land Army are expected to make their own arrangements for keeping the leather boots and shoes supplied to them in good repair until replacement is necessary. As regards rubber boots, these are repaired free of charge under arrangements that have been made by the Rubber Control with local firms throughout the country. As to the second part of the Question, a considerable range of clothing and boots suitable for work on the land, as well as supplementary clothing coupons, is issued free to members of the Women's Land Army. The Women's Land Army are civilian agricultural workers mainly employed by individual farmers. Their clothing issue is, therefore, on a basis somewhat similar to that of other civilian workers in State service, and not to that of the auxiliary services associated with the Armed Forces.

Mr. Stephen: Are not the Women's Land Army subject to discipline the same as the other women's Services, and should they not have the same facilities?

Mr. Chapman: Although the land girls are doing splendid and vital work, they are not an army in the usual acceptance of the term.

Mr. Stephen: asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is aware of the unsatisfactory conditions at the Women's Land Army Hostel, Hillhouse, Troon; that for the last six weeks the dormitory has been without firing and


the beds damp and unfit to sleep in; and whether he will take steps to put this right?

Mr. Chapman: A complaint regarding damp mattresses was made at the end of last week. The affected mattresses were immediately replaced. Instructions have been given to provide fires in the dormitories when circumstances warrant. I am informed by the agricultural executive committee for North Ayr that conditions in general have been satisfactory since the hostel was opened in June of this year.

Oral Answers to Questions — BRITISH ARMY

Acting Unpaid Lance-Corporals

Mr. John Dugdale: asked the Secretary of State for War how many acting unpaid lance-corporals are there in the Army to-day?

The Joint Under-Secretary of State for War (Mr. Arthur Henderson): I regret that the information is not available. The number varies from day to day.

Mr. Dugdale: Is my hon. and learned Friend aware that the number is very large, and will he not consider increasing the establishment of lance-corporals instead of employing privates to do the work at cut rates?

Mr. Henderson: That is another question.

Officers (Temporary Rank)

Major Milner: asked the Secretary of State for War whether the arrangements for the retention by officers of temporary rank have yet come into operation and from what date; and whether general instructions have been, or will be given, ensuring the retention of such rank in the case of officers who have proceeded over seas since 10th November?

Mr. A. Henderson: Instructions bringing the new arrangements into operation will be issued in a few days. They will ensure that an officer who proceeded overseas on or after 7th November will retain his temporary rank or have it regranted to him.

Major Milner: Is my hon. and learned Friend aware that his answer will give great satisfaction to those concerned?

Oral Answers to Questions — ENEMY NATIONS

Major Markham: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs with which countries the United Kingdom is at war; with which countries we have now broken off diplomatic relations; with which countries the various British Dominions are now at war; and with which countries they have severed diplomatic relations?

The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Richard Law): The United Kingdom is at war with Germany, Italy, Hungary, Rumania, Finland, Japan, Bulgaria and Siam. Diplomatic relations do not exist with Denmark or Vichy France. The latter part of the Question should more properly be addressed to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Mr. Arthur Greenwood: Will the Leader of the House state the forthcoming business?

Mr. Eden: Before I go into the Business in detail, I must make one reference to the Workmen's Compensation Bill, which was brought forward as an agreed Measure after consultation with those concerned. I regret that circumstances arose yesterday which made it impossible for us to complete the Bill. If as I hope this difficulty can be overcome, we will arrange for the remaining stages of the Bill to be taken as the first Order on the next Sitting Day, on the understanding that it will not take more than one hour of our time. I would remind the House that the Bill has still to be considered in another place. I felt it necessary to make this proposal in view of the importance of the matter raised by the Prayer against Defence Regulation 33B and the general desire in all parts of the House that that Debate should be begun at an early hour. Therefore, subject to what I have said, the first Sitting Day will be available for a Debate on the Prayer relating to Defence Regulation 33B which stands on the Paper in the name of the hon. Member for West Fulham (Dr. Summerskill) and others.
On the second Sitting Day we shall take the Committee and remaining stages of the Supreme Court (Northern Ireland) Bill [Lords]. Afterwards the Adjournment of the House will be moved, and there will


be an opportunity for a Debate on War Finance and Borrowing Policy.
The Motion for the Christmas Adjournment will be taken on the third Sitting Day. '

Mr. Stokes: Is it proposed at an early date to give the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Production an opportunity to tell us something about his recent visit to the United States?

Mr. Eden: There may be an opportunity for that later on, but not in the next series of Sittings.

Mr. Pickthorn: Has my right hon. Friend considered the promise he made last week to look into the possibility of giving time for a discussion of the Motion standing in the name of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Burton (Colonel Gretton)?

[That this House regrets the recent tendency to discuss on the Adjournment matters for which time has been allotted by the Government and for which Debate on specific Motions might have been appropriate; and in particular this House is of opinion that any report from the Public Accounts Committee should be debated on a specific Motion.]

Mr. Eden: I have looked into that, but I am sorry that the Government are not in a position to afford time for consideration of this Motion. I can, however, assure my hon. Friend and other hon. Members who put their names to this Motion that their expression of opinion has been noted by the Government. We would like to follow this practice whenever we can, but the Government would like a little latitude in the actual application of it.

Mr. A. Bevan: There is on the Order Paper a Motion in the name of many hon. Members concerning our relations with Admiral Darlan.

[That this House is of the opinion that our relations with Admiral Darlan and his kind are inconsistent with the ideals for which we entered and are fighting this war: furthermore, that these relations, if persisted in, will undermine the faith in us among our friends in the oppressed and invaded nations and impair the military, social and political prospects of the final and complete triumph of the cause of the United Nations.]

The Government have decided that this matter shall be taken in Secret Session to-day, and to that I take no exception. If the Government wish to have it, they must have it. But will the Government consider, before we rise for the Christmas Recess, some way in which the House may put on record its attitude towards this matter, so as to reassure opinion in the country, which is very uneasy about the whole situation? Would it not be undesirable that we should part for a period without the House giving some leadership and reassurance to the country? Although the right hon. Gentleman may not like the terms of the Motion, will he consider some instrument by which our demand can be given effect to?

Mr. Eden: I would remark that the public position in respect to this matter is already governed, and remains governed, by the statement made by the President of the United States and by the statement I have made in this House. I could not therefore possibly give any undertaking that any statement of that kind will be made. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]

Mr. Bevan: Hon. Members who now support the right hon. Gentleman did so before. It is now clear, however, that we were right and that public opinion is seriously disturbed. While not desiring to say anything which may injure our relations with any other nations, I would point out that public opinion in this country is led by Parliament and by nobody else. Therefore, Parliament should have an opportunity of stating its views on this matter, for the reassurance of the country.

Mr. Eden: I think that the hon. Gentleman and the House are aware of the origin of the Secret Session, the purpose of which' is to give hon. Members the maximum information in our power.

Earl Winterton: Will my right hon. Friend clear up what seems to be a constitutional point of magnitude? He states that, the House must rest satisfied with the statements made by him and the President of the United States. Whatever views one holds on this question, surely the House has a perfect right, if it so desires, to debate in public any action of high policy taken by His Majesty's Government, whether that policy is acquiesced in or initiated by the Allies or not.

Mr. Eden: I entirely agree with my Noble Friend, but with all respect I do not think I used the words which he has put into my mouth. The expression which I gave was only an expression of the Government's opinion. Of course, the House has all the opportunities and the scope open to it in our normal procedure.

Sir Percy Harris: Would it not be reasonable to wait until we have heard the Prime Minister's statement? If we are not satisfied, we can then press the matter further.

Dr. Haden Guest: In view of the important statement made yesterday by the Lord Privy Seal in another place on relief measures for Europe, will the House have a reasonably early opportunity of discussing this matter, especially the question of the method of Allied control of relief measures and the co-ordination of that Allied control?

Mr. Eden: I would like to consider that. The hon. Member will recall that I dealt with that to some extent, but I would like to bear that consideration in mind.

SECRET SESSION

Notice taken, that Strangers were present.

Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to Standing Order No. 89, put the Question, "That Strangers be ordered to withdraw."

Question agreed to.

Strangers withdrew accordingly.

[The remainder of the Sitting was in Secret Session.]